More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
08-18-2005 | 11:57 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Disturbed Riders
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,779
From: Flint Town, MI
More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
Here ya go for all the foriegn car bandwagoners, I'm seeing more and more of this crap in the papers everyday. Deceptions, mis leading info and garabage that the American public all buys into. 
Asians Oversell Horsepower
The Detroit News
By Jeff Plungis
Aug. 17, 2005
WASHINGTON – After years of touting ever higher horsepower numbers to win new customers, Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and possibly other automakers are now backtracking on some of those claims.
Strict new tests developed by the industry's top engineering group are prompting the carmakers to roll back horsepower estimates on several key vehicles, including the Toyota Camry, America's best-selling car, and Honda's luxurious Acura RL.
For the 2006 model year, Toyota says its Camry equipped with a 3-liter V-6 engine generates 190 horsepower. In 2005, Toyota said the same car with the same engine had 210 horsepower.
The revised ratings comply with new Society of Automotive Engineers standards designed to eliminate subjective interpretation in establishing horsepower claims.
While Toyota and Honda are retesting their entire vehicle lineups, other automakers generally are retesting only cars and trucks with updated powertrains.
Over time, most automakers are expected to comply with the new guidelines, and horsepower ratings for other vehicles could be revised.
Detroit's automakers say they have been conservative in calculating horsepower and don't expect to have to reduce horsepower ratings on many vehicles. In fact, after retesting, the Big Three have revised horsepower ratings upward on several vehicles.
The changes are likely to raise questions among customers.
"Horsepower is a big draw," said Jim Sanfilippo, an automotive marketing expert at AMCI Inc.
"This is at best difficult to explain," he added.
"Toyota and the other companies better have a good answer when customers ask questions about what happened."
The Camry has been a best-seller for years and a linchpin in Toyota's strategy to increase sales in North America.
Honda is reducing horsepower ratings across its Acura brand. The flagship RL sedan will lose 10 horsepower, to 290 from 300. The popular MDX SUV will fall from a rating of 265 to 253. Less powerful models such as the Honda Civic will see smaller reductions.
"From what we've seen so far, this is going to affect the Japanese and the Europeans a lot more than the domestic manufacturers," said Mark Brueggemann, senior market analyst for Kelley Blue Book.
Brueggemann said engines have not changed, so car shoppers won't notice any drop-off in performance during test drives. But consumers look at horsepower when they're deciding which models to test drive and buy.
For example, the 190-horsepower Camry will compete against a new Hyundai Sonata that advertises 235 horses under the hood. "This could have a possible effect of eliminating a car from consideration," he said.
The changes are already having an impact among die-hards who prowl Internet chat rooms like AutoWeek's Combustion Chamber, Edmunds Town Hall and GM Insidenews. In a recent posting on AutoWeek's site under the heading, "Acura hurt by new SAE hp standard -- numbers were inflated," one chatter said: "Bottom line is if you sell me a car with the promise of say 300 hp, I want my 300 hp!"
Toyota had to advertise based on the new SAE testing procedures because of a California state law, said company spokesman Bill Kwong. The company then decided to use one set of ratings for all of its U.S. ads.
"We hope it won't be confusing," Kwong said. "If you drive a 2006 or 2005, it drives the same. It's the same car. Customers are not getting anything less or anything more."
Honda spokesman Mike Spencer predicted it would take a few years for customers to understand the changes, but eventually all manufacturers will be using the new SAE tests.
"We've been using SAE procedures all along, it's just that SAE changed their procedures," he said.
The news is better for General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. Some models such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Fusion sedan are faring better under the new testing procedures, which could give them a much-needed edge in the marketplace.
The Cadillac XLR roadster with a Northstar engine saw its horsepower rating go from 440 to 469.
"We have confidence that our customers will get the power they pay for," said GM spokesman Thomas Read. "It's going to give the consumer a better rating for their engine."
As the new testing procedure is phased in, it may be tricky for consumers. For example, the Ford Five Hundred sedan is rated at 203 horsepower for 2006, the same as the 2005 model. But the 2006 rating does not reflect the new SAE testing procedure, because Ford is not going to the expense of retesting its existing engines, said company spokesman Nick Twork.
The company will use the new SAE test only when it overhauls a powertrain, as it did for next year's Explorer, Twork said.
But Twork said Ford does not expect significant drop-offs in horsepower as the new test is phased in. When Ford unveiled its midsize Fusion sedan in January, it projected 210 horsepower. When it was tested under SAE's official protocol, the engine received a 221 horsepower rating, Twork said.
"We typically like to underpromise and overdeliver," Twork said. "We feel we've been pretty conservative, and we don't anticipate any major changes."
DaimlerChrysler is using the new SAE procedures on any model with changes in its powertrain, said spokesman Cole Quinnell. He said the company expects new ratings to be within 3 percent of the old ratings, with some going up and some going down. DaimlerChrysler is making a special effort to test high-performance models, like the Dodge Viper V-10. The Viper now tests at 510 horsepower, up from 500 in 2005.
"We've wholeheartedly embraced the new procedures," Quinnell said. "We hope it shows our credibility."
When an engine doesn't measure up to its advertised performance, it can hurt. Mazda Motor Corp. reintroduced the rotary engine with its RX-8 sports coupe a few years ago. It had a high horsepower rating. But when drivers got inside, they discovered weak low-end torque, meaning that the rocket-like acceleration they'd expected was missing.
Ford pulled its high-performance Mustang Cobra from the market a few years ago when enthusiasts complained the engine did not live up to its billing. Ford tweaked the engine before selling it again.
SAE says it tightened its horsepower rules when engineers noticed some elements in the old test were prone to interpretation.
"We tried to tighten language that was open to interpretation," said Dave Lancaster, a technical fellow at General Motors Corp. who chaired the SAE committee that wrote the new requirements.
Under the old testing procedures, there were small factors that required a judgment call: how much oil was in the crankcase, how the engine controls were calibrated and whether a vehicle was tested with premium fuel. In some cases, the little adjustments added up to a big change in horsepower ratings. The new SAE procedures allow less wiggle room.
John Di Pietro, road test editor at Edmunds.com, said the drop in horsepower ratings for '06 models they have tested are not especially dramatic. For vehicles such as a midsize family sedan, the reputation of the manufacturer will likely be more important, Di Pietro said.
"It will be up to the salesman to ensure they understand the engine hasn't actually lost any power," he said.
Asians Oversell Horsepower
The Detroit News
By Jeff Plungis
Aug. 17, 2005
WASHINGTON – After years of touting ever higher horsepower numbers to win new customers, Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and possibly other automakers are now backtracking on some of those claims.
Strict new tests developed by the industry's top engineering group are prompting the carmakers to roll back horsepower estimates on several key vehicles, including the Toyota Camry, America's best-selling car, and Honda's luxurious Acura RL.
For the 2006 model year, Toyota says its Camry equipped with a 3-liter V-6 engine generates 190 horsepower. In 2005, Toyota said the same car with the same engine had 210 horsepower.
The revised ratings comply with new Society of Automotive Engineers standards designed to eliminate subjective interpretation in establishing horsepower claims.
While Toyota and Honda are retesting their entire vehicle lineups, other automakers generally are retesting only cars and trucks with updated powertrains.
Over time, most automakers are expected to comply with the new guidelines, and horsepower ratings for other vehicles could be revised.
Detroit's automakers say they have been conservative in calculating horsepower and don't expect to have to reduce horsepower ratings on many vehicles. In fact, after retesting, the Big Three have revised horsepower ratings upward on several vehicles.
The changes are likely to raise questions among customers.
"Horsepower is a big draw," said Jim Sanfilippo, an automotive marketing expert at AMCI Inc.
"This is at best difficult to explain," he added.
"Toyota and the other companies better have a good answer when customers ask questions about what happened."
The Camry has been a best-seller for years and a linchpin in Toyota's strategy to increase sales in North America.
Honda is reducing horsepower ratings across its Acura brand. The flagship RL sedan will lose 10 horsepower, to 290 from 300. The popular MDX SUV will fall from a rating of 265 to 253. Less powerful models such as the Honda Civic will see smaller reductions.
"From what we've seen so far, this is going to affect the Japanese and the Europeans a lot more than the domestic manufacturers," said Mark Brueggemann, senior market analyst for Kelley Blue Book.
Brueggemann said engines have not changed, so car shoppers won't notice any drop-off in performance during test drives. But consumers look at horsepower when they're deciding which models to test drive and buy.
For example, the 190-horsepower Camry will compete against a new Hyundai Sonata that advertises 235 horses under the hood. "This could have a possible effect of eliminating a car from consideration," he said.
The changes are already having an impact among die-hards who prowl Internet chat rooms like AutoWeek's Combustion Chamber, Edmunds Town Hall and GM Insidenews. In a recent posting on AutoWeek's site under the heading, "Acura hurt by new SAE hp standard -- numbers were inflated," one chatter said: "Bottom line is if you sell me a car with the promise of say 300 hp, I want my 300 hp!"
Toyota had to advertise based on the new SAE testing procedures because of a California state law, said company spokesman Bill Kwong. The company then decided to use one set of ratings for all of its U.S. ads.
"We hope it won't be confusing," Kwong said. "If you drive a 2006 or 2005, it drives the same. It's the same car. Customers are not getting anything less or anything more."
Honda spokesman Mike Spencer predicted it would take a few years for customers to understand the changes, but eventually all manufacturers will be using the new SAE tests.
"We've been using SAE procedures all along, it's just that SAE changed their procedures," he said.
The news is better for General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. Some models such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Fusion sedan are faring better under the new testing procedures, which could give them a much-needed edge in the marketplace.
The Cadillac XLR roadster with a Northstar engine saw its horsepower rating go from 440 to 469.
"We have confidence that our customers will get the power they pay for," said GM spokesman Thomas Read. "It's going to give the consumer a better rating for their engine."
As the new testing procedure is phased in, it may be tricky for consumers. For example, the Ford Five Hundred sedan is rated at 203 horsepower for 2006, the same as the 2005 model. But the 2006 rating does not reflect the new SAE testing procedure, because Ford is not going to the expense of retesting its existing engines, said company spokesman Nick Twork.
The company will use the new SAE test only when it overhauls a powertrain, as it did for next year's Explorer, Twork said.
But Twork said Ford does not expect significant drop-offs in horsepower as the new test is phased in. When Ford unveiled its midsize Fusion sedan in January, it projected 210 horsepower. When it was tested under SAE's official protocol, the engine received a 221 horsepower rating, Twork said.
"We typically like to underpromise and overdeliver," Twork said. "We feel we've been pretty conservative, and we don't anticipate any major changes."
DaimlerChrysler is using the new SAE procedures on any model with changes in its powertrain, said spokesman Cole Quinnell. He said the company expects new ratings to be within 3 percent of the old ratings, with some going up and some going down. DaimlerChrysler is making a special effort to test high-performance models, like the Dodge Viper V-10. The Viper now tests at 510 horsepower, up from 500 in 2005.
"We've wholeheartedly embraced the new procedures," Quinnell said. "We hope it shows our credibility."
When an engine doesn't measure up to its advertised performance, it can hurt. Mazda Motor Corp. reintroduced the rotary engine with its RX-8 sports coupe a few years ago. It had a high horsepower rating. But when drivers got inside, they discovered weak low-end torque, meaning that the rocket-like acceleration they'd expected was missing.
Ford pulled its high-performance Mustang Cobra from the market a few years ago when enthusiasts complained the engine did not live up to its billing. Ford tweaked the engine before selling it again.
SAE says it tightened its horsepower rules when engineers noticed some elements in the old test were prone to interpretation.
"We tried to tighten language that was open to interpretation," said Dave Lancaster, a technical fellow at General Motors Corp. who chaired the SAE committee that wrote the new requirements.
Under the old testing procedures, there were small factors that required a judgment call: how much oil was in the crankcase, how the engine controls were calibrated and whether a vehicle was tested with premium fuel. In some cases, the little adjustments added up to a big change in horsepower ratings. The new SAE procedures allow less wiggle room.
John Di Pietro, road test editor at Edmunds.com, said the drop in horsepower ratings for '06 models they have tested are not especially dramatic. For vehicles such as a midsize family sedan, the reputation of the manufacturer will likely be more important, Di Pietro said.
"It will be up to the salesman to ensure they understand the engine hasn't actually lost any power," he said.
08-18-2005 | 12:29 PM
#3
Lacks self-control
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,584
From: Birch Run, MI
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
Originally Posted by swat1
i get over 40 miles to the gallon with my **** a$$ honda.
08-18-2005 | 01:45 PM
#4
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,149
From: Roseville, Michigan
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
[QUOTE=r1dude]Here ya go for all the foriegn car bandwagoners, I'm seeing more and more of this crap in the papers everyday. Deceptions, mis leading info and garabage that the American public all buys into.
[QUOTE]
Don't you ride a Yamaha......last I looked that was foriegn, or are you just bias to the foriegn car owner here.......and no I don't work for any foriegn companies, I work for Ford, and used to work for GM, ask Bourne.
Lead by design.......
[QUOTE]
Don't you ride a Yamaha......last I looked that was foriegn, or are you just bias to the foriegn car owner here.......and no I don't work for any foriegn companies, I work for Ford, and used to work for GM, ask Bourne.
Lead by design.......
08-18-2005 | 02:10 PM
#7
Rock'n the world
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,869
From: FlintTown,Mi
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
Don't you ride a Yamaha......last I looked that was foriegn, or are you just bias to the foriegn car owner here.......and no I don't work for any foriegn companies, I work for Ford, and used to work for GM, ask Bourne.
Lead by design.......
I wouldn't call presenting the facts being bias towards American companys. The point is the American companys are under rating the HP and the foriegn companys are over rating. If someone is using the amount of HP a car has a reason for buying it then it is clear the foriegn companys are ripping the american public off.
The foriegn companys say they were using the old SAE standards to rate their HP but so were the American companys and there HP is coming back higher with the new SAE standards. So it is clear if the testing was done per the old standards everyones HP should be coming back in the same direction off.
And yes he rides a Yamaha but you name one AMERICAN motorcycle manufactor that produces a Sportbike that is anything close to the superbikes/1000cc bikes of the japs. If your into Sportbikes your limited to buying Jap bikes or Buell which is in a differnt league of bike to me. I like the inline 4 cylinder bike the power bands are just awesome.
Jeff
Last edited by BigJeff; 08-18-2005 at 02:12 PM.
08-18-2005 | 02:56 PM
#8
Registered User
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 344
From: burton
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
my brother has a 1985 toyota mini pickup he bought new in 1985.its been thru his wife and two of his sons and has 330,000 + miles on it.ive always owned american cars/trucks but them lil jap motors sure do run.GM is finally learning from these "decieving" japs how to build a reliable car for the us market.because GM paid 2 to 3 people to do a 1 man job for a generation,our generation suffers from it.flint is a ghost town.
08-18-2005 | 03:53 PM
#9
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,149
From: Roseville, Michigan
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
Posted by Lou Brakant
"We as Americans love HP, Big Beefy Hamburgers, etc,etc. and finally with this $hit on gas($3bucks a gallon..WTF) we are finally getting smarter and buying into these foreign companies not for HP, for Gas comsumption/long-life.....GM/Ford/Chrysler should have been pursueing Hybrids, alternative fuels, and also focus more attention to detail for life expectancy, and not focus any energy on trying to say someone cheated on HP or push most of their manufacturing time building these monster SUV's, and then showing how much more HP they really have"
Response by R1DUDE
"This is not personal, but I find so hard to believe how mis-informed the public is and I'm not even sure who's to blame for that, other than smart (deceptive) advertising from foriegn competiters.
Truth is, over the last five years the average GM gas mileage has lowered 5mpg and Toyota has raised it's by 5mpg. As a matter of fact thier new truck thats coming out is worse than a hummer on gas mileage. They have one hybrid, which is being investigated for both: incorrectly adverstised gas mileage (owners complaining) and a safety problem which is causing the car to stall in the middle of the road."
PS I meant to reply to this and hit edit by mistake, I'm sorry about that.......I'm retarted.
"We as Americans love HP, Big Beefy Hamburgers, etc,etc. and finally with this $hit on gas($3bucks a gallon..WTF) we are finally getting smarter and buying into these foreign companies not for HP, for Gas comsumption/long-life.....GM/Ford/Chrysler should have been pursueing Hybrids, alternative fuels, and also focus more attention to detail for life expectancy, and not focus any energy on trying to say someone cheated on HP or push most of their manufacturing time building these monster SUV's, and then showing how much more HP they really have"
Response by R1DUDE
"This is not personal, but I find so hard to believe how mis-informed the public is and I'm not even sure who's to blame for that, other than smart (deceptive) advertising from foriegn competiters.
Truth is, over the last five years the average GM gas mileage has lowered 5mpg and Toyota has raised it's by 5mpg. As a matter of fact thier new truck thats coming out is worse than a hummer on gas mileage. They have one hybrid, which is being investigated for both: incorrectly adverstised gas mileage (owners complaining) and a safety problem which is causing the car to stall in the middle of the road."
PS I meant to reply to this and hit edit by mistake, I'm sorry about that.......I'm retarted.
Last edited by Duke Nukem; 08-18-2005 at 06:59 PM.
08-18-2005 | 04:49 PM
#10
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 633
From: Sao Paulo, Brazil
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
Originally Posted by Taz
And I get 25 MPG with 400 GM horsies and they are REAL horses.... 0 to 60 anyone ??
08-18-2005 | 05:00 PM
#11
Lacks self-control
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 7,584
From: Birch Run, MI
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
Originally Posted by FJakeR
well...considering my FJR will beat you down, sure, I'll run you 0-60 or a 1/4 mile for pinks...and I'll be getting 45 mpg doing it...
08-18-2005 | 06:03 PM
#13
Registered User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 633
From: Sao Paulo, Brazil
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
Originally Posted by Taz
Ill race you on my 954... now lets stay apples to apples ...
08-18-2005 | 06:22 PM
#14
Thread Starter
Disturbed Riders
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,779
From: Flint Town, MI
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
[QUOTE=Lou_Brakant][QUOTE=r1dude]Here ya go for all the foriegn car bandwagoners, I'm seeing more and more of this crap in the papers everyday. Deceptions, mis leading info and garabage that the American public all buys into.
Don't you ride a Yamaha......last I looked that was foriegn, or are you just bias to the foriegn car owner here.......and no I don't work for any foriegn companies, I work for Ford, and used to work for GM, ask Bourne.
Lead by design....... That's like saying you have a foriegn TV don't ya, it's not apples to apples. I theres not a choice, what can you do about. But in case your wondering about the Yamaha, see link below from a few weeks ago if you want know my thoughts. Have a guy in Milwaukee I almost finished the deal.
https://www.stuntlife.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=136700
Don't you ride a Yamaha......last I looked that was foriegn, or are you just bias to the foriegn car owner here.......and no I don't work for any foriegn companies, I work for Ford, and used to work for GM, ask Bourne.
Lead by design.......
https://www.stuntlife.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=136700
08-18-2005 | 06:29 PM
#15
Thread Starter
Disturbed Riders
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,779
From: Flint Town, MI
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
[QUOTE=Bern1GM is finally learning from these "decieving" japs how to build a reliable car for the us market.because GM paid 2 to 3 people to do a 1 man job for a generation,our generation suffers from it.flint is a ghost town.[/QUOTE]
Nope, we taught the Japanese how to make cars after the war. We were all just to fat and happy to apply the same principles we taught to them. Deming, Crosby and Juran were the guys who did it in the 50's and 60's and we didn't apply our own knowledge. We are finally there, but hopefully we are not to late........note, most Taxi cabs use the 3800 engine built here in Flint and no engines are run harder than cabbies. We have a few in the shop with 400K plus cab miles and still run great.
Nope, we taught the Japanese how to make cars after the war. We were all just to fat and happy to apply the same principles we taught to them. Deming, Crosby and Juran were the guys who did it in the 50's and 60's and we didn't apply our own knowledge. We are finally there, but hopefully we are not to late........note, most Taxi cabs use the 3800 engine built here in Flint and no engines are run harder than cabbies. We have a few in the shop with 400K plus cab miles and still run great.
08-19-2005 | 02:25 AM
#16
Rock'n the world
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 1,869
From: FlintTown,Mi
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
Originally Posted by Lou_Brakant
Posted by Lou Brakant
"We as Americans love HP, Big Beefy Hamburgers, etc,etc. and finally with this $hit on gas($3bucks a gallon..WTF) we are finally getting smarter and buying into these foreign companies not for HP, for Gas comsumption/long-life.....GM/Ford/Chrysler should have been pursueing Hybrids, alternative fuels, and also focus more attention to detail for life expectancy, and not focus any energy on trying to say someone cheated on HP or push most of their manufacturing time building these monster SUV's, and then showing how much more HP they really have"(
"We as Americans love HP, Big Beefy Hamburgers, etc,etc. and finally with this $hit on gas($3bucks a gallon..WTF) we are finally getting smarter and buying into these foreign companies not for HP, for Gas comsumption/long-life.....GM/Ford/Chrysler should have been pursueing Hybrids, alternative fuels, and also focus more attention to detail for life expectancy, and not focus any energy on trying to say someone cheated on HP or push most of their manufacturing time building these monster SUV's, and then showing how much more HP they really have"(
You must have worked in a factory for GM then. GM has been working on Hybrids for the better part of 8 years now. And they have been trying to do it on Trucks not cars that already get good gas mileage. Do some research on bus transit and see who is building hybrid buses. The biggest problems with Hybrids is their cost and the fact the only person really seeing the rated gas mileage are those doing almost all city driving. The reason for this is the electric motors are used mainly for low speed driving. One of the biggest reason GM hasn't rushed any Hybrids out is they were having problems with battery life. They have been and still are pursuing Alter. fuels too just more focus is on Hybrids and Hydrogen fuel cells right now.
GM's new truck gas mileage isn’t finalized yet. They haven't done any final gas mileage testing and depending on what level of software the PCM has in it depends on the gas mileage. I know for a fact the trucks are too early in the game to even have a rough fuel mileage guess. The SUVs are closer but nothing is totally bought off on yet. And when it is bought off it will not be lower the hummer, which is a 6800lb vehicle.
GM has lowered their average gas mile by 5mpg but GM builds how many more product lines then Toyota not to mention they build the Hummer, which destroys GM's overall company average gas mileage.
And in closing LOL GM didn’t make these claims or as stated by SAE facts. The media is just bringing to everyone’s attention the fact foreign companies is lying about hp numbers. The test being used is a test conducted and approved by SAE not GM. I hope the foreign Auto makers are getting advertised gas mileage since their MPG numbers are based off a engine with x amount of hp and they really have x-x of true hp.
Jeff
08-19-2005 | 02:00 PM
#17
Registered User
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,938
From: Mi
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
All I know is for three years running a certain car (Mustang) was low on rated HP...and they got slammed for it.....then the RX8 came out...30hp low....recall....everyone uses whatever data they need to show what they want to show.....data is useless to anyone but the person that wnated it collected because they are the only one that truely knows the circumstances of the test......
08-19-2005 | 02:22 PM
#18
Retired
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 37,967
From: .
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
Originally Posted by Judge
All I know is for three years running a certain car (Mustang) was low on rated HP...and they got slammed for it.....then the RX8 came out...30hp low....recall....everyone uses whatever data they need to show what they want to show.....data is useless to anyone but the person that wnated it collected because they are the only one that truely knows the circumstances of the test......
08-19-2005 | 04:09 PM
#19
Thread Starter
Disturbed Riders
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,779
From: Flint Town, MI
Re: More deception and fraud from our toyota friends
Originally Posted by NINER
Think Toyota will fix your car so your car is putting out the HP they advertized?
