bigred875

Paligurl2 - You make an excellent point. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. I agree, that this should be addressed along with the atrocities in other countries, but that fact is and you hit the nail on the head. Isreal is our ally. I'm not sayin that is an excuse that the US looks the other way but, the US has looked the other way in other countries as well. The problem is that the US is only know under Pres. Bush trying to stand up to the nations and attemping to right a lot of the wrongs. Why start with Iraq? They were our biggest threat...with or with out WMD's. He supported terrrist networks with money, with weapons, with shelter...... Also, with our actions in the middle east countries like Libya are turning over their WMDs and cooperating.....this is all good for the hole world not just the US. Unfortunately the US is damned if they do anything and damned if they don't. If we ignored Iraq and they were behind(directly or indirectly) an attack on the US or anywhere the world would be up in arms screaming at Bush asking why was nothing done to stop this....

My feeling is that nothing is more important then national security...nothing. If we do not have that then everything else it moot. First we need to take care of national security and in thie area has been flawless. I say give Bush another 4 years get things straight then put someone else in who you see more eye to eye with.

bigred875

Why no response after I posted the link?

As far as the FCC thing goes I'm torn. I don't think any one should be taken off the air or fined with out a day in court. This doesn't seem right to me but on the other hand as Teach mentioned in one of his posts about "kids" today. Which I feel old just saying that but it is kinda true. Very different then the 90's, 80', 70's...... I think that there is a time and place for Howard Stern..is it in the morning when a lot of kids listen? I dunno...that is when everyone else listens too. Sometimes Howard go a little too far..but who the hell am I to decide that. It should be left to the courts but the courts are so afriad of the constitution and the 1st ammendment that there is no way they would find anything wrong with what he does. It is such a gray area...there are like 5 words that cannot say and certain topics that you aren't supposed to take about(from my limited knowledge on the subject) and Howard is a genius at pushing that level just about to the breaking point. Some say past..I dunno. Yes you do have the right to change the channel but kids from like 10 say i dunno 15(don;t want to offend any of the young members here), sure they have a coice to change the channel but will they. Of course not..I wouldn't have. But if it wasn't on the radio or the Media took a little resposibility in censoring them selves instead of putting the craziest things they can think of on the TV and Radio to make money 1st. Which I know business is business but I think we as a society has to help...this whole country need a doche. It is really getting out of hand. IMO

I see what the Bush administration is trying to accomplish, which is for the greater good...but I'm not so sure church is the way to go.

Brian_C6

Anyone ever hear of "Seperation of Church and State"? We all know what happens when Religion interferes with Government.... look at the Middle East. Bush is trying to change this country with his own religious beliefs. You can talk about morals, decency, what's acceptable, etc. all day long but you can't mix the two successfully. You can't use political power to control people's beliefs, morals, religion, etc.

And like I said earlier.... just because Isreal, Iraq, Iran, or any other country, lives differently that us, doesn't give us any right to invade and change. The problem is WE think everyone should live like us. We ARE NOT the standard way of life and we have no right to force change elsewhere.

Brian

bigred875

All true but it is not as cut and dry as that. When this country was founded, religion was involed from the begining...."In God WeTrust"...."one nation Under God. And the more this country gets away from that the worse the values in this country have declined. This is kind of a hypocritical statment from me because I do not go to church not do I support religion to be forced down our throat.

How do you recommend we try to raise the moral values in this country? I don't have this slightest clue. Bush thinks religion will help....Do I agree..Yes and No. I agree that something needs to be done.

I think the US understands that people live and believe differently, that is not the issues here. The issue is about human rights..when another country is killing other people just based on their religous and political views. That is a crime against humanity and the whole world should step up to the plate and put a stop to it. To bad no one does...except the US. And the world expects us too then critisizes the way we do it.

Brian_C6

I have no clue but even the friggin religious system in this country is corrupt. You're better off buying a bible and teaching your kids what you think is necesary nowadays.

Who decides what rights humans have? Us? That's my point... we have no right to decide what is humane globally. We live a different in a completely different society.

bigred875

"Who decides what rights humans have? Us? That's my point... we have no right to decide what is humane globally. We live a different in a completely different society.

Well yes and no. I do not like the fact that the US has to be the police for the whole world. But that is the role we have fallen into. Way way before W. The problem is at times if we wait to long to step in it is almost to late. WWII..**** Germany and friends. There are a lot of people that are a lot smarter then me that put Saddam up there with those guys. And he very well should be..thankfully he did not get up to the power that Hitler did. But was def. trying to united the Middle East either with or with out force then attempt to take on the rest of the world. And if the US would allow that to happen and more and more people started to get killed The whole world(yourself included) would be shouting..."Why didn't we do anything to stop this!!! Aren;t we the most powerful country in the world and we LET this go on....." I can hear it now.

That is why I say that W is in a damned if he does and damned if he don't situation. For me I'd rather play it safe and protect human rights. Whether you have the same views or beleifs as they do there is no need for genocide. How would you feel in this country you saw people getting killed for differnt beliefs no matter what they are..political or religous and nobody stepped in to help because you do not have the power to do anything but watch your friends and family get murdered around you.

IMO that is a crime and violation of your human rights and someone needs to step in.

bigred875

Have any of you seen the specials on the History channel..etc About Hussein and Iraq. It is unthinkable the things they did to their own people.

I saw when they went into a room about the size of a baskball court filled with filling cabinets that contained over 1 million DETAILED records of tortue, raped and murder. Each of the folder listed in detail about how they were tortues, vitcims responses, How long it took the vitcim to die. Like they were proud of their work and they have records to make them more effiecient at killing and better at torturing peopl.

These records were of men, women and children. They show'd several feild of shallow graves and Iraqi's scouring through the bodies to find their loved ones to finnaly get some closure. Crazy crazy unthinkable stuff.

If you disagreed with the regime you would first taken away and beaten just about to death..if you were lucky. They would take your wife rape and beat her. They woudl take you children and do the same. That is why this went on for the past 32 years..they were all scared to death of him. Hew held meeting with all of his cabinet and would pick ramdom names out..make up something they said against the regime take them out of the room and more times then not torture them then kill them just as a warning to everyone who stand up to Saddam.

One of his sons I think Uday was just nuts. He would kill, rape and torture just for fun. He personally filled out some of those files. There is one report that he and his friends were cruising around one day and rode by a church that had a wedding going on at the time. And for no good reason they stormed in, took the bride who was a virgin..beat her just about to death and Uday along with 9 or 10 of his friends all gang raped her.

Are you telling me no one should step in and do something??
-

Brian_C6

nothing different than things hundereds of years ago

Brian_C6

and more of a reason I think Bush is reversing American progression. Because he's leading with a religious regime, we'll be back to those times before you know it

Brian

TEACH C6

i'd rather be back to those times of more simplicity and moral obligation, than where we are heading in the future....i'm a teacher and love kids, yet i'm scared to bring my own kids up in this crazy world.

the end is near.

chris

bigred875

But this is 2004 we cannot just turn our back on the world. The world does not operate the way it did 100yrs ago. We are the most powerful country in the world and with that comes resposibility.

Human life is not a privledge it is a right and no matter what you or your "group" beleives you do not have the right to take another human right.

bigred875

But this is 2004 we cannot just turn our back on the world. The world does not operate the way it did 100yrs ago. We are the most powerful country in the world and with that comes resposibility.

Human life is not a privledge it is a right and no matter what you or your "group" beleives you do not have the right to take another human right.

upstateR6

Sorry it took so long (24 hours), some people work. As for the LA times article, you have to look at the source. The whole story is an account from a guy named Mansoor Ijaz. For a little backround he was a Rich Sudanese Investment banker with major stakes in Sudanese Oil. He came to Sandy Berger and told him that the Sudan would trade Bin Laden in exchange for Sanctions to be removed off of Sudan. The Sudan had these sanctions because they were and still are widely known as one of the most significant contributors to terrorists groups including Hezbollah and known to harbor terrorists in their country. The problem with this transaction was that the U.S doesn't conduct diplomacy with individuals as a policy. Sandy Berger went to the Sudan to talk to the Sudanese goverment and they told him and his staff the allegations were in fact false and they were not holding Bin Laden. Mansoor Ijaz then went on to work for Fox News of all places. . .. .


As for the other link it basically boils down to this. If you ask Sandy Berger (a democrat) you get the story I wrote above. If you ask Carney (a republican) he will tell you the story in the link. Beleive who you want.

bigred875

"Sudan’s Bashir, fearing the rise of bin Laden, sent intelligence officials to the U.S. in February 1996. They offered to arrest bin Laden and extradite him to Saudi Arabia or to keep close watch over him. The Saudis "didn't want their home-grown terrorist back where he might plot to overthrow them.”

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/arti...5/153637.shtml

"Sudan offered up the terrorist and data on his network. The then-president and his advisors didn't respond."

http://www.infowars.com/saved%20page..._bin_laden.htm

" he couldn’t find the president for hours when intelligence located Osama bin Laden, and when he did, Mr. Clinton consulted and re-consulted until the terrorist got away. "

"Mr. Clinton let Osama bin Laden slip away and even lost the security codes to America’s nuclear arsenal. The missteps, Mr. Patterson contends, culminated with the terror attacks of September 11, 2001. "

http://daily.nysun.com/Repository/ge.../17&ID=Ar00200

"During Bill Clinton's presidency, officials received specific intelligence about the whereabouts of Osama bin Laden and weighed a military plan to strike his location."

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_397335.html


Shall I go on?

". If you ask Sandy Berger (a democrat) you get the story I wrote above."

And that is the problem it is only a story. You think the Dems. would actually admit it?

upstateR6

And bigred875, you don't have to remind everyone how much of a scumbag Saddam was, everyone has heard the stories. But he certainly wasn't the worst in the world. If you were going in their just for humanitarian reasons alone, we would have stop by some other countries first. How about Uzebekistan. The president/dictator of this country BOILS people alive if he doesn't like them, and we just gave them 500 Million dollars to "help us fight terrorism". How about China, do you know how many infants they kill a year? Its disgusting. In fact 35% of the entire worlds population currently live under a dictator.

bigred875

No arguements there...but Saddam was our biggest threat at the time. We cannot go into every country at once. I'm sure/hope after all is said and done they will be dealt with also....

"But he certainly wasn't the worst in the world. "

This can be argued but I feel he was at the time.

upstateR6

Not only is this newsmax (complete garbage) but it is just the Ijaz story again. I already replied to his nonsense.

I already replied to his nonsense.

I haven't read the book deriliction of duty, but I have looked through it. Its basically an account of a disgruntled former employee who takes some strange adhomoneim attacks on Clinton because Clinton didn't use the military enough. At least thats what I got from it. To each his own.

"Officials said the Clinton administration in its closing months reviewed several opportunities to strike at bin Laden, but never felt they had enough information to risk such an operation."

It basically boils down to this. We could have attempted an attack on BinLaden but weren't even sure of his location and didn't want to kill any innocent civilians. Something the Bush administration doesn't seem to mind.

bigred875

I have posted several links to back up my so called nonsense.

Show me something other then your opinion.

koffee

How can we even have this discusion, none of these statements above are facts. They are just goverment propaganda.None of us know the true facts! Politicians lie so much they forgot what the truth realy is. The media in this country is not much better. I'm voting for " None Of The Above". For every incident in America there are a 100 different versions of Fact.

silent1

Yano, we should start a whole other thread now. I'm curious what you think about how schools are doing that zero-tolerance stuff. I know you heard about the kid who got suspended for bringing the SI Swimsuit Edition to school, and the kid who got suspended for licking his tongue out at a girl who wouldn't be his gf (i think he's 9 or 10). It's getting out of control!

Oh, and Michael Moore is a goddamn idiot.